Ockham's References to the Dialogue or its Parts

Original plan

Prologue Quod opto in tres distingui tractatus, quorum primum "De hereticis", secundum "De dogmatibus Iohannis vicessimisecundi ", tertium "De gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam" volo vocari. The first "tractate" is to be divided into seven "books".

[Later the terminology changes: the originally intended three "tractates" are called "parts" (the term used in all the manuscripts even for the first of the three), the third part is sub-divided into tractates, divided further into books. The second "tractate", "De dogmatibus Iohannis vicessimisecundi", also comes to be referred to as a "part", and is to be divided into at least four tractates subdivided into books (see 3.1 Dial. 1.9, 3.2 Dial. 1.24, IPP 27.223 and IPP 27.648).]

References in Part 1 to projected Part 2

(See L. Baudry, Guillaume d'Occam. Sa vie, p. 125-6; J. Miethke, Ockhams Weg, p. 88, n. 330.)

1 Dial. 2.12 Discipulus Exemplum adductum de constitutione sanctissimi patris Iohannis papae 22 peto quod nullatenus hic pertractes, quia, ut dixi, postea de tota doctrina eiusdem quaestiones tibi movebo.

1 Dial. 5.3 Discipulus Illa que tangunt dominum Iohannem 22 volo usque ad tractatum de dogmatibus ipsius differre.

1 Dial. 5.27 De istis duobus ultimis exemplis, que tangunt constituciones domini Iohanni, tecum quando te interrogabo de tota doctrina eiusdem Iohannis collacionem habebo.

1 Dial 6.4 nam de potestate pape in tractatu secundo de doctrina domini pape magis diffuse tractabimus [De potestate pape is now a topic of 3.1 Dial.]

1 Dial. 6.8 Discipulus: De iurisdictione temporali pape et imperatoris pertranseas quia in tractatu De dogmatibus Joh. 22-i de hoc plures tibi questiones movebo [now a topic of 3.2 Dial.]

1 Dial. 6.8 de qua [whether a pagan emperor can punish or depose a criminal pope] tecum in tractatu De dogmatibus Io. 22-i prolixius disputabo. [Now a topic of 3.2 Dial.]

1 Dial. 6.85 Discipulus Quo iure clerici gaudeant libertatibus Ecclesiasticis an scilicet iure Divino vel humano et an iure solummodo canonico vel iure regum et principum secularium secundo tractatu istius operum diligenter inquiram [now a topic of 3.2 Dial.]

1 Dial. 7.49 Discipulus: De exemplis adductis in secundo tractatu De dogmatibus Iohannis 22 loquemur,

1 Dial. 7.67 Discipulus: De defensoribus hereticorum et heretice pravitatis usque ad tractatum De dogmatibus Iohannis 22-i et tractatum De gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam,

1 Dial. 7.67 Discipulus: De hac materia [whether the pope's fullness of power overrides the property rights of laymen] te exquisite interrogabo in tractatu De dogmatibus Iohannis 22i [now a topic of 3.2 Dial.]

References in Part 1 to Part 3

1 Dial. 6.77 De quibus [calumniators] in tertia parte huius operis scilicet tractatu de gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam

1 Dial. 6.88 Discipulus Haec materia [on the election of a true pope if the incumbent becomes a heretic] locum habet in tractatu De Gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam.

1 Dial. 7.4 Discipulus Desine plures auctoritates adducere, quia in tractatu De gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam super materiam [the rules of interpretation of documents] hanc revertar . . . Magister Si interrogaveris me de hoc in illo tractatu . . . (cum ad illum tractatum veniemus)

1 Dial. 7.15 Ideo ipsam [on calumny, detraction etc] usque ad tractatum De gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam

1 Dial. 7.25 Discipulus De hac materia [on those outwardly good but sinful in private] in speciali interrogabo te plura in tractatu De gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam.

1 Dial. 7.26 Discipulus De ista material [on rulers' obligation to protect the good name of poor men] et annexis eidem puto quod scires quamplurima recitare, quae ad tractatum De gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam volo differri.

1 Dial. 7.34 Discipulus De hac materia [whether the right to elect a pope can devolve from the cardinals to all or some of the Romans] te interrogabo sollicite in tractatu De gestis circa finem altercantium contra fidem catholicam [cf. 3.2 Dial. 3.5]

1 Dial. 7.36 Discipulus De episcopis et praelatis non habentibus sacrarum literarum peritiam in tractatu De gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam aliqua indagare studebo.

1 Dial. 7.57 (quae [on the defenders of heresy] ad tractatum de gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam reservo)

1 Dial. 7.63 Discipulus De istis [those who do not know that the pope is a heretic] quaerere haberem multa: sed ea ad tractatum De gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam reservo.

1 Dial. 7.65 Quamvis adhuc de fautoribus hereticorum et heretice pravitatis essent investiganda quamplura, de quibus, applicando ad determinatas personas, in tractatu De gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam sollicite indagabo,

1 Dial. 7.67 De defensoribus haereticorum et haereticae pravitatis usque ad tractatum de dogmatibus Iohannis 22 et tractatum De gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam nola plura inquirere.

1 Dial. 7.68 Discipulus: Aliqua que in precedenti capitulo [on dealings with excommunicated persons] recitasti aliquibus forsitan videbuntur obscura, que in tractatu De gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam te faciam explicare.

1 Dial. 7.73 Discipulus: De isto ultimo dicto [that there is as much wickedness now as there was in Noah's time] vehementer admiror, cuius motiva in tractatu De gestis circa fidem altercantium orthodoxam sollicite indagabo.

References in Part 3 to Part 1

Baudry, p. 159 (note 5 at the end has misprints: "Tract. II, lib. 3, c. 1.7" refers to cap. 17, "tract. IV" is "tract II".)

3.1 Dial., 1.4Ad quod probandum adducte sunt allegaciones plures in prima parte huius dialogi libro 5, c. 4.

3.1 Dial., 1.9 Discipulus Ista allegacio in simili tractata est aliquantulum diffuse libro sexto prime partis istius dialogi c. 3.

3.1 Dial., 1.13 quas recitavi supra prima parte istius dialogi libro 5, 18. c. [Rather c. 17], in quibus Ieronimus asserere videtur expresse quod nullus sacerdos ex ordinacione seu institucione Christi est maior alio, neque in ordine neque in administracione.

3.1 Dial., 1.14quos eciam allegavi prima parte huius dialogi libro 5, c. 10 [Rather, in chapter 20].

3.1 Dial., 2.24ex prolixa nostra disputatione "De potestate interpretandi dicta et statuta aliorum", prima parte nostri Dyalogi, libro 6, [cap. 100.]

3.1 Dial., 3.1 licet qualis fides scripturis aliis quam canonicis debeat adhiberi in prima parte [[lib. 2 Fr adds in margin ]] huius dialogi,

3.1 Dial., 3.5 Sane de his et aliis quae spectant ad ipsam primam partem nostri dialogi lib.5 c.26 et 27 28 et 29 aliquantulum diffuse tractavimus

3.1 Dial., 3.5 Et ita non est necessarium in omnibus absque omni exceptione credere concilio generali, praesertim cum secundum quosdam aliquando erraverit, ut eis apparet, et in prima parte istius Dialogi lib. 5 existit probatum

3.1 Dial., 3.16 Unde et propter hoc videtur ut nititur declarare quaedam opinio quam tractavimus prima parte istius dialogi libro 7 quod quando lex aliqua vel constitutio habet plures sensus, a conditore est interpretatio requirenda.

3.1 Dial., 3.23 nisi per alios modos, de quibus multa diximus in prima parte istius Dialogi lib. 4, de pertinacia convinci valeat apertissimis documentis

3.1 Dial., 3.25 Magister Pro hac materia potes recurrere ad septimum librum primae partis istius Dialogi ubi de hoc multa discussimus

3.2 Dial., 1.19 Qualiter autem debet de pertinacia quis convinci in primo tractatu huius Dialogi libro quarto est aliqualiter indagatum.

3.2 Dial., 3.15 An autem possit esse aliquis favor haereticae pravitatis absque haeretica pravitate in favente ex his quae dicta sunt libro 7 primae partis huius Dialogi advertere poterit studiosus.

3.2 Dial., 3.15 Ad allegationem pro secunda opinione respondetur quod licet papa si efficiatur haereticus sit ipso facto et ipso iure depositus, sicut in prima parte Dialogi huius libro sexto

3.2 Dial., 3.16 Discipulus Quamvis in prima parte nostri Dialogi li. 6 tractaverimus an imperator sit iudex ordinarius summi pontificis. . . hic tamen de hac materia conferamus ut excitemus alios tractatulum hunc visuros qui primam partem forsitan huius operis non habebunt

3.2 Dial., 3.16 Discipulus Ut mihi detur occasio intelligendi profundius istam materiam pro ista assertione multas auctoritates adducas, etiam illas quas in prima parte istius dialogi tetigisti,

3.2 Dial., 3.17 Magister Ad hoc plures rationes sunt inductae in prima parte huius dialogi libro 6 c. 2 et 3 et 4 et 5,

3.2 Dial., 3.17 Magister Quod imperator possit et debeat papam pro omni crimine iudicare quampluribus viis ostenditur, quarum una, quae etiam tacta est in prima parte istius Dialogi

3.2 Dial., 3.23 Magister Alia ratio comprehendens duas tactas in prima parte istius Dialogi li. 6 c. 4 et 5 est talis

References in Part 3 to Part 2

3.1 Dial 1.9 Discipulus De fundamento istius allegacionis [that the pope does not have fullness of power because a vicar does not have as much power as his principal, and Christ was a poor man] satis poterimus invenire in tractatu quarto secunde partis istius dialogi ad quem pertinet exquisite disserere de paupertate Christi. (Referred to Offler, OP IV, p. 275, n.32, correcting Lyons. Cf. errors 25-29 drawn from Quia vir in EFM.)

3.2 Dial 1.24 Discipulus De hoc [that it is heretical to say that Christ as man is king in temporal matters] satis habere poterimus in tractatu tertio secundae partis huius Dialogi. (Cf. Offler OP IV, p. 275, n.33.)

References in Part 3.1 to Part 3.2

Baudry, p. 213

Prologue secundus de potestate et iuribus Romani Imperii (in quo quamplurima de iuribus regum ac principum ac eciam laicorum aliquorum tractabimus)

3.1 Dial. 1.8 quod [whether Christians have ownership] vero ad tractatum de iuribus Romani Imperii reservare propono.

3.1 Dial. 1.9 Discipulus De distinccione potestatum spiritualis et secularis et an potestas secularis sit a papa, diffuse tractabimus in secundo tractatu istius tercie partis nostri dialogi.

3.1 Dial. 1.15 Discipulus Istam materiam [on coercive power] conabor tecum discutere in tractatu de iuribus Romani Imperii

3.1 Dial. 2.2 Discipulus: Ex ista ratione coniicio quod ex hiis que potero invenire in secundo tractatu istius tertie partis Dyalogi libri primi, ubi tractatur an expediat toti mundo uni principi seculari subesse, potest perpendi faciliter qualiter pro utraque parte hic valeat allegari.

3.1 Dial. 2.8 Discipulus: Quamvis ad id quod peto possint allegationes alique supra adducte allegari, et etiam plura circa consimilem materiam ex quibus potero plura advertere circa hoc petitum dicantur in secundo tractatu huius Dyalogi libri 3, [cf. 3.2 Dial., 1.1.] tamen volo ut aliquas speciales allegationes inducas ad probandum quod magis expedit communitatem fidelium regi ab uno quam a pluribus secundo modo.

References in Part 3.2 to Part 3.1

Baudry, p. 212

3.2 Dial., Prologue Proinde post tractatum de potestate Papae et cleri tractatus de iuribus Romani Imperii, quae nonnulli literati ex sacris literis nituntur elicere subnectatur

3.2 Dial. 1.3 Discipulus: Pro ista opinione possumus invenire multa in tractatu de potestate papae et cleri;

3.2 Dial. 1.13 Discipulus De ista materia plurima poterunt legentes in tractatu de potestate papae et cleri invenire.

3.2 Dial. 1.20 De qua opinione potero invenire quamplurima in tractatu De potestate Papae et cleri.

3.2 Dial. 1.23 Discipulus Quamvis de fundamento istius rationis plura poterimus invenire in tractatu De potestate papae et cleri,

3.2 Dial. 1.23 Discipulus De hoc sicut et de aliis in tractatu de potestate papae et cleri plurima poterimus invenire.

3.2 Dial. 1.23 Licet autem de isto sicut et de omnibus aliis quae spectant ad potestatem papae possumus invenire multa in primo tractatu huius tertiae partis nostri dialogi,

3.2 Dial. 2.10 Nam de illis quae spectant ad patrimonium ecclesiae in tertio huius erit sermo de quibus etiam in tractatu de potestate papae et cleri plura poterimus invenire.

3.2 Dial. 2.14 Discipulus De primo casu et tertio praedictorum nolo hic disserere quia directe spectare videntur ad tractatum de potestate papae et cleri,

3.2 Dial. 2.15 Magister Sicut invenire poteris in tractatu de potestate papae et cleri,

Other References in Part 3 to Part 3

3.1 Dial. Prologus Proinde ad terciam partem nostri dialogi, quam ab inicio de gestis circa fidem altercancium orthodoxam volui appellari, etc

3.1 Dial. Prologus postea in hoc tractatu et eciam in nono tractatu huius tercie partis nostri dialogi tractabimus.

3.2 Dial. Prologus Proinde post tractatum de potestate Papae et cleri tractatus de iuribus Romani Imperii, quae nonnulli literati ex sacris literis nituntur elicere subnectatur: praesertim cum occasione Romani Imperii quidam -- quorum gesta, sicut et multorum aliorum, in tractatibus secuturis, ad quos isti duo primi tertiae partis nostri dialogi sunt praeparatorii et praeambuli, nitemur discutere -- de fide altercari coeperint orthodoxa.

Reference to indeterminate place

1 Dial. 6.93 de isto modo ponendi [that only secular judges have jurisdiction over heretics] in aliis tractatibus saepe occasionem habeo loquendi

1 Dial. 6.9 De ipsis [opinions on whether pope or emperor has power to excommunicate] tamen in alio tractatu tecum collocutionem habebo.

1 Dial. 7.16 Discipulus De hac responsione in alio tractatu faciam mentionem.

References to Dialogue in other works

Breviloquium

Pr.18-23 (p. 98) dialogum quondam prolixissimum in plura volumina distinctum

De imperatorum et pontificum potestate

(See Baudry, p. 159, n. 1; Miethke, p. 88; Offler, OP 4, pp. 274-5,) pr.72 in quodam dialogo, quem dudum incepi

26.28-31 (p. 324) Innumerabiles aliae iniuriae... quibus populum Christianum... in servitutem contra libertatem evangelicae legis conantur redigere... quae et qui in dialogo explicantur et disputative discutiuntur.

27.195-6 (p. 332) [Cum inter as interpreted by John's other statements is inconsistent with Exiit,] secundum quod in dialogo de quo prius mentio fit... diffuse probatur.

27.223-4 (p. 333) [John's error in Cum inter that Christ and the Apostles had rights of use is discussed] secundo libro secundi tractatus secundae partis dialogi

27.251 (p. 334) [Refers to 1 Dial.4: Either John was never pope because Nicholas was not, or John was a heretic.] Qualiter autem ista disiunctiva sequatur ex praemissis, ex hiis, quae disputative discutiuntur in prima part dialogi libro quarto, facile est videre. Offler (OP IV, p. 334n) suggests 1 Dial. 5.2.

27.340-41 (p. 338) [John's error in Quia quorundam that having property need not diminish poverty is discussed] in tertio tractatu [secundae partis] dialogi

27.476 (p. 342) [Melchiades did not say that the Apostles had estates in Judea.] Qualiter autem modo recitata ad illud decretum Melchiadis papae debeant reprobari, sicut et multa alia contingentia suprascripta, et in opere speciali super constitutione praedicta Quia vir reprobus in quarto tractatu secundae partis dialogi, et etiam in quibusdam aliis opusculis, qui habuerit, clare perspiciet.

27.648-9 (p. 349) In hiis verbis novem praescripti continentur errores. Qualiter autem quidam illorum sint inter se contrarii et qualiter singuli reprobantur, in opere prolixo super eodem libello Quia vir reprobus etiam in quarto tractatu [secundae] partis dialogi videri poterit.

[The last two passages suggest that 2.4 Dial. would have been devoted to Quia vir reprobus; see also above. Perhaps (as Offler suggests, OP, vol. 4, pp. 274-5) the organization would have been: tract 1 on Ad conditorem, tract 2 on Cum inter (see above), tract 3 on Quia quorundam (see above), and tract 4 on Quia vir. Somewhere John's allegedly heretical sermons would have been dealt with. This structure would correspond with that of several other of Ockham's attacks on John XXII, including Letter to the Friars Minor, Compendium errorum and IPP cap. 27. An objection: according to 3.2 Dial 1.24, tract 3 is supposed to deal with a topic that otherwise relates to Quia vir -- see above]

Conjecture

Perhaps Ockham decided that Part 3 was more urgent to write than Part 2, but saw a need for some of the material originally intended for Tract 2 (see 1 Dial 6.4, 1 Dial. 6.8 , 1 Dial. 6.85, 1 Dial. 7.67) as "preambles" to Part 3, and therefore wrote 3.1 and 3.2 Dial.: however he did not finish 3.2 Dial. and never wrote the rest of Part 3, or Part 2. Perhaps when he decided to write these preambles he also drew up a detailed plan for Part 2, dividing it into four tractates: references to this division do not occur before 3.1 Dial.